Oerlis:Keninkryk Fryslân

Utwreiding fan it Fryske Ryk

correct or not?

Sorry for my poor Frisian and my undiscussed work. I removed the map shown on the right side from the article, cause I think, it's not correct. Kening Aldgilles set it back and friendly asked me to discuss it here. The same User, who created the map, tried to place it in the german Wikipedia and in others. I removed it, cause this map doesn't show the facts. It shows the wishfulness of a great Frisian Empire, which never existed in this way. For example: When King Redbad went 716 to Keulen this became never part of his empire. What do you think? Matthias Süßen 12 sep 2009, 15.48 (CEST)

Ik haw gjin inkel probleem mei de ôfbylding. It lit hiel dúdlik sjen de útwreiding en ynkrimping fan it Fryske gebiet yn it tiidrek tusken 511-793. Dat is neffens my it doel fan de ôfbylding en is yn slagge. Keulen is yndied net fan de Friezen west, mar sy haw dêr wol slach levere en wûn en in skoftlang wie it Fryske leger dêr yn de omjouwing. Doe bin se werom lutsen en wat jierren letter wie it dien mei de Fryske macht. Wy witte yndied net folle oer it Fryske keningskip, dat is wier. It barren fûn plak yn de donkere midsieuwen dêr't net folle skriftlike boarnen fan oerlevere binne. Mar kening Redbad moat wol in wichtich tsjinstanner west hawwe fan Karel Marter want dizze kriichshaftige lieder is yn al syn krigen mar ien ferslein en dat wie troch Redbad. Gr. --Geoffrey 12 sep 2009, 17.39 (CEST)

TRANSLATION: I don't have any problem with the map. It gives a good impression of the Frisian expansion and collapse between 511-793. I believe that is the purpose of the map and I think it is complete. Cologne was no Frisian territory, but they have fought a battle there and stayed a while with a Frisian army in that region. They retreated later on and the Frisian influence became smaller and smaller. We don't know much about the Frisian kings, that is true. The events took place in the early medieval time and there are not many written sources available. But King Redbad must have been an important player because he was the only one who defeated Karel Marter.

This map gives a good impression of what the Frisian region in the early dark ages. The map is based on events which occured from year to year. There are Franconian sources and Britannic sources which support events you see on the map. You need to specify what is wrong and the map can be changed.

On Wikipedia, there are hundreds of maps about the middle ages. We can not give 100% accuracy about borders in that time. Those maps are used to give an impression, visualizing what happened. So the statement 'correct or not' could not be applied to maps from that time. If you say that those borders are fixed borders, it would not be true. If you would say 'map showing Frisian expansion' or 'Frisian influence', we get very close to the point. So if I read your question correct, you have difficulties with the wording. The article about the Frisian Kingdom is very reserved, and the map just gives an impression of what that time looked like. You have to understand that a lot of people in West-Frisia don't know where to find Cologne on the map.

The events you can read in the article about the Frisian Kingdom are the same as you described in your article about the Battle at the Boarn on the German Wikipedia. There are numerous books written about the Frisian history by people with a academic grade. We can even provide you a list of books. Some are online and for free.

On this Wikipedia we use to have a nice atmosphere. We are always open for suggestions. Please no edit-wars or removing content without discussion. With supporting arguments we can change articles if there are discrepancies. Best regards -- 12 sep 2009, 18.37 (CEST)

Dear Kening Aldgilles. I am a strong supporter of a nice atmosphere in any wikipedia. I told you, why I removed the map. And I still think that I did it right. I still thing that Cologne/ Keulen never was part of the frisian empire, what ever this was. I know that there are numerous books about the frisian history and that there exist much more in West-Frisia cause we Frisians in Germany aren't that strong and it's hard to finance research in this field. But i have numerous books and here we have listet some of them to share literature. In the books i have read that it was written that the early frisisan kings had very little power and authority and only sometimes all frisians did something together. You are right, when you say that can not give 100% accuracy about borders in that time. But for me i have the biggest problem with the map when it declares regions to the frisian empire like the way to Cologne/ Keulen and the city too who were occupied for just a very little time. In your map it looks like that this was for the years from 716 to 719. I guess it wasn't that long, that the frisians had the power in this regions. You are right that the events are the same I described in the article about the Battle at the Boarn but i guess we came to a different evaluation of the significance. Thats it. I didn't want to attack you but I tried to explain why I removed the map and you told me why you think, that this map is ok. There are a lot of people who support you here and in the german wikipedia we came to another solution. For me this is ok. If the majority here doesn't agree this will not be an armageddon to me. Eala Frya Fresena Matthias Süßen 13 sep 2009, 12.56 (CEST)

I get the point. This map only shows Frisian expansion. I think it is good to try and make a description of the power of the Frisian kings. I also think it is good to make newer/better map. Till then, I would say we keep the old stuff. Never throw away old shoes before you have new ones. In the wiki-project Ost-Friesland, there are several people who are able to make those maps. I think its a good idea. Greetz --Kening Aldgilles 3 okt 2009, 12.38 (CEST)

Bewurkje driuwend nedich

De siden binne tige ferâldere en hâlde gjin rekken mei de stân fan literatuer sûnt 10 oant 15 jier, en geane noch altyd út fan it bestean fan in oerkoepeljend Frysk ryk. Resinte literatuer giet út fan it bestean fan in rige lytse keninkriken yn de sechsde iuw. It ryk fan Aldgisl en Redbad wie net grutter as Hollân en oft Poppo mear as in dux wie, is ek net wis.

Halbertsma skreau syn boek yn 1982. Allinnich Menno Dijkstra hold yn 2010 noch fêst oan syn fisy, alle oare skriuwers fan Van der Tuuk oant Nijdam, Meeder & Goosman en Hines & IJssenagger 2023 ûndergrave it byld fan in oerkoepeljend keninkryk. Boppedat is it in ideologysk foarindich byld dat oanlieding jout ta grutte misferstannen.lOtto S. Knottnerus (oerlis) 13 apr 2024, 21.50 (CEST)

@Otto S. Knottnerus, goeie. As jo wolle fiel frij de nedige feroarings te meitsjen. Sit mar net oer it Frysk skriuwen yn. Wy sille wol meihelpe te hifkjen. Gr. Kneppelfreed (oerlis) 14 apr 2024, 01.30 (CEST)

Goeie ek. Kneppelfreed. No, ik skriuw google-translate Frysk. Ik haw ek in soad tiid trochbrocht op de Nederlânske, Dútske en Ingelske wikisiden. êrom bliuw ik noch efkes by signaleringen en lytsere korreksjes.

In dit gefal is it noch dreger, want de fantasearre kaarten oer Magna Frisia en de (ferkearde) bewegende kaart fan it Fryske keninkryk, dy't Kening Aldgilles hjir nettsjinsteande terjochte krityk yn 2009 pleatste, ek yn kontekstualisearre of op oare wize fuorthelle wurde moatte.

Ik tink dat it probleem is dat in hantsjefol bekrompen Friezen (en dan bedoel ik net per se Kening Adgilles) sa’n tsien, fyftjin jier lyn in protte Fryske, Ingelske en Nederlânske wikisiden foldie mei ferâldere kennis út de tiid fan Douwe Kalma. En dy ferhalen binne fluch ferspraat fia weblogs en ynternetartikels, sadat je se no oeral tsjinkomme. Dat is de yndruk dy't ik stadichoan krij.Otto S. Knottnerus (oerlis) 14 apr 2024, 14.00 (CEST)

@Otto S. Knottnerus, sa't Drewes al op jo oerlisside neamd hat is Frysker.nl in goed helpmiddel. En oars sil ik miskien meikoarten hjir ris fierder nei sjen. Ik haw it boek fan Hines en IJssenagger (2023). Dêr wurdt ek troch oare ûndersikers wurd dien. Dêr moat dus wol even oanmurken wurde dat de mieningen fan de gelearden wol aardich ferdield binne oer it ûnderwerp. Dat kaartsje dy't hjirboppe stiet mei om my wol fuort, want da is histoarysk net korrekt. Kneppelfreed (oerlis) 16 apr 2024, 09.45 (CEST)

Kneppelfreed, belangryk is neffens my dat sûnt Menno Dijkstra (2010) nimmen mear foar in keninkryk Magna Frisia pleitet. Dus dy suggestje moat derút. It kaartsje is spitigernôch ek ynternasjonaal te ferbreedzjen om him samar oeral skrasse te kinnen. Ferpleatse nei in minder promininten plak en in oare taljochting jaan, set foarearst nei myn idee mear seadden oan 'e dyk. Ik haw trouwens alle belangrykste ferbinings tusken Fryske haadsiden yn ferskate talen trochljochte. Ik sil op Friezen (doorverwijspagina) in skema .meitsje.Otto S. Knottnerus (oerlis) 16 apr 2024, 14.31 (CEST)

@Otto S. Knottnerus, dat is wis. Dat moat wol nemad wurde. Mar der moat ek oanmurken wurde dat De Langen en Mol oppenearje dat Aldgisl en Redbad selsstannich hearskje koene en dat se dan wol oer in frij grut machtgebiet beskikke moatten hawwe, om't se in frij sterke tsjinstanner fan de Frankyske machtshawwers wiene. Sy hâlde it foar mooglik dat Redbad de Friezen eastlik fan it Fly mei him ferbûn hie en miskien ek noch wol mear. Ik tink dat de mieningen hjiroer fuort noch net útiten binne en der sil faaks noch wol mear ûndersyk dien wurde. Der binne net sa'n soad boarnen út dy tiid foarhannen, dus bliuwt it meast by spekulaasje. Mar ik bin it mei jo iens dat dizze side oanpast wurde moat, want mearkes en fiktive ferhaaltsjes hearre ek net thús yn in ensyklopedy. Wat dat kaartsje oanbelanget kin it oanfrege wurde en helje him út Commons wei. It probleem faak is as der eat op ynternet stiet, it der slim wer wei te heljen is.

Eefkes of-topic, ik haw ek in reäksje efterlitten op de oerlisside fan de Nederlânske side Friezen. Dy moat it leafst ek feroare wurde. Gr. Kneppelfreed (oerlis) 17 apr 2024, 08.04 (CEST)